Surely from a strictly Christian view, the 'true meaning of Christmas' is totaly selfless sacrifice. God gave us his only son who would untimately die to take away the sins of the world such that we, if we accept that sacrifice, will not die but have eternal life.

Now, whether you believe that or not, that remains the meaning of Christmas in a Christian country.

The fact that most of us celebrate it my spending money we don't have, on presents that nobody really needs. Eat and drink far too much and justify it by using that incredibly annoying phrase 'That's what it's all about', just illustrates how far we've driffted from the original meaning.

As you said CC, we've highjacked pagan festivals; Mithras, winter solstice, etc. etc. and call them traditional, even the christmas tree only appeared when Albert introduced it from Germany.

For those with little children Christmas can be a magical time and only by keeping it magical will we have any hope of retaining anything like it's 'true' meaning. Sadly though, I think that as a nation we have driffted too far.

If one looks back over the last 30 years, we can see that those who stand to make some money on the holidays have been honing their skills every year to a finer and finer degree.  Black Friday is a sign that something is wrong with the economy (at least in the USA...) The Friday after thanksgiving has been named black Friday because that is the day that most retailers finally will start to see black ink in their accounting books.  That is the day (or thereabouts) that they know if and how much profit they will have for the year.  That day starts the Christmas sales, shopping, etc.  Some stores were opening at 4 AM this year in the DC area.  Someone I work with said one store was opening at midnight. Way too commercialized, definitely.   Doing financial harm to people, yes. Good for businesses, not even really all that good.  If a business model has to resort to this to make money, then I propose it is not that good of a business model.  If a retail business can’t make money during 10-11 months out of the year, is it REALLY a good business model?  Each year, these businesses know that consumers are spending NEXT years money on this years products.  That majority of people in the USA will NOT finish paying off their debts within a year, or even within a couple of years.  (refinancing a house, and rolling credit card debt into a mortgage does not count as “paying the debt off” in my book.)  If one starts the year off with $100,000 in mortgage debt, and $5,000 in credit card debt, and next January has $110,000 in mortgage debt, and a FRESH $5000 in credit card debt, this person is CLEARLY NOT paying anything off, but merely restructuring an ever increasing debt load. Not only is it commercialization, but each year, the retailers are really just getting the money this year and taking it from next year.     In reality, people are doing exactly what you say, spending money they don't have.  What this means is that retailers' financial survival now depends on people buying on credit.  When people buy on credit, they are reducing their spend-able reserves for the following years to come.  This year, let's say a man makes 50,000, and spends $55,000.  Next year, if he makes the same 50,000, he has the same bills, but now must also pay off that $5000 in credit debt. (or some portion of it.) if he pays off half of it, that means next year he will have 2500 less to buy things with.  Now, his standard of living is at the level of someone making 47,500.  Next year, if he spends the same $5000 on credit, and assuming he pays half of what he owes again, then he will be paying half of 7500 off during the year, meaning his effective income will be 46250.  Each year, he will have less to spend if he uses the same amount of credit each year, and does not fully pay it off.  EVEN if he fully pays it off, he will still have wasted about $1000 in interest for things he does NOT even need.  so, even if he pays it all off, he still is living on 49,000 of his real salary of 50,000.  In effect, the retailers are giving up more and more of next years profits, to get them this year.  It's like falling forward, the more you lean forward, the faster you step, but you can't quite catch up, so you lean more, and have to step even faster.  You know you are going down, but instead of just giving in, you keep trying to get you feet under you, and end up running forward trying to catch yourself.  It is a losing game.  I hope this makes some sense, as I don't have time now to go back and edit it, and it can be a complex principle.I didn’t really intend this to be a lesson in economics, but I guess that is what it turned out to be.  One last thought… if we make this out to be some magical thing to the children, then when they grow up and see that it is not, I wonder if this is what causes (or is a contributing factor to) so many people having holiday time depression?  (I know less daylight this time of year plays a part in this, also…)

Thanks for the economics lesson SeekerE. Probably not what the thread was intended to be but it does serve to illustrate that our world is not ruled by the love and selfless acts which we like to think of as the ‘true meaning of Christmas’ (OK it might be on a personal level) but by greed. And that greed as far as I can see has been fuelled by the very institutions that we should be relying on to help us control our money – the banks.  They lend far more than people can afford to repay and then when inflation start climbing, they raise interest rates and make the loan even less affordable.  Someone explain to me the sense in that (apart from the fact that the banks make shed loads on the deal).

Bah humbug !

thorn, that is what I want my Christmas to be - a celebration of the end of a year, staying warm, happy and loved. I was just reading chocolate's other post asking if 2007 was a failure, I've had my ups and down but among my many ups was meeting some truly inspirational people, and it's those messages and encounters I'm keeping to the forefront of my mind (and your bricks are among them, thorn, I hope you don't mind :-))

I am so inspired by this talkabout - s1dg5y, emerald seeker, thorn, 7vicar - you all put the true meaning of CHristmas into perspective - via the religious, economic and personal. As i am writing i realise that i am spending part of my Christmas with you - and that is a new way of looking at Christmas for me - to bond with people whom you do not know but whose lives you come to understand and value. Long live anonymous virtual Christmas-es peopled by those who are not afraid to speak from the heart.